Interviews

Interview of Jamie O'Keefe with Erin Kelly of 'Mens Fitness' magazine for August 2007 issue.

* Erin:- what has been your own worst experience of an unprovoked attack?

Jamie:- I’ve had a few serious encounters so its hard to pick out the worst because they are all serious but in different ways.

I was once dragged into an alleyway in Barking. One guy put a tight length of cloth around my neck from behind and pulled me backwards whilst assisted by his two helpers. I had bit of a reputation at the time so neither of them wanted to take any chances. I don’t want to glorify violence so its enough to say that I was the only one that walked away. Although I was a pretty handy guy at back in the day, I think that it was fear and survival instinct that enabled me to survive the situation. I later found out that some small petty criminals paid to have me seriously hurt because I had smashed some drug dealers in my area prior to that. I detest drugs but it worsens when they sell to kids.

Another time I was held down on the pavement and had my face stamped on until my nose caved in as part of a group assault on me. They then threw me off the bridge onto the railway lines. That was at Bromley by Bow after I had a situation in the Duke of Wellington pub. That incident made the Sunday papers. It was then that I realised that alcohol and my mouth do not compliment each other. I haven’t touched the stuff for years now.

On another occasion I had a guy attempt to slice me across the eyes in an attempt to blind me. I covered up my face a part of a natural reaction and the jagged edged weapon tore my arm open and ripped my veins etc.

I’ve had lots of situations like that without even counting the numerous encounters whilst working on the door. I even had one guy shoot at me with a Smith & Wesson at close range in my own home when I was a doorman. That again was me trying to stamp out drug dealers. So I cannot really say that one is the worst. I actually hate violence. I’m so passive natured now that I don’t even like killing germs :-). I think I’ve found the closet Buddhist in me.

* Erin:- Do you think that street / pub violence is on the rise? Or is the nature of our streets changing – more knife / gun crime, for example? Or are things calming down?

Jamie:- I think that it has become the norm to go out in groups and binge drink. Many youngsters actually get partially drunk before they even leave home. Its cheaper for them to do it that way. They can’t afford to pay the extortionate prices that clubs charge for drinks. So part and parcel of this is that we end up with thousands of young adults hitting the town in a condition of having consumed mind altering substances such as alcohol and drugs. The effect of this is that fear and personal inhibitions are greatly reduced and it doesn’t take much for a little light-hearted fun to turn into a confrontation. If you took alcohol and drugs out of the equation then most of the socialising culture violence would disappear. It obviously wouldn’t change the 'hate violence' that exists with racial, religious and political groups though because that’s something quite different.

With regards to the knife and gun thing. Its just the numbers game. If you take any group of 100 people and analyze them, you will find one thief, one fighter, one peacemaker, one politician, one writer etc. If you then add another 100 people you will find two of everything and so on. Also we each pass through phases in our life of being many of these things at different times. So if you increase the UK's population by 1,000,000 then by default you are going to have more crime, alcohol and drug abuse etc but as we rarely step outside of our environmental safe comfort zone, it will seem that violence is getting worse. However if you divide the statistics up between the population then its probably not much different. Gun and knife crimes are still pretty minimal which is why we hear about them on the news. Whereas we have become desensitized to reports of rape and most cases don’t even make the headlines anymore. How often do we feel afraid to go out for the evening incase we get shot or stabbed? I would say pretty much never. So that kind of indicates the level of threat. I’m not saying that the possibilities are not out there, but if you were to do a risk assessment I think you would still feel safe enough to go out.

However, I do see a larger undetected risk. I seriously think that edged weapons such as knives, sharp objects, broken bottles, beer glasses, and anything else that has a piercing or cutting edge is our biggest worry. For example a knife is unlike a gun, a knife is silent, does not need reloading and can be reused forever. A simple drinks can could be used as an edged weapon and would cause serious tearing/cutting damage and could even take a life if used to vital areas. These discarded cans are seen on every roadside, mostly flattened by passing vehicles and ready to use. The lawful deterrents should be applied to 'the use' of any item used as an 'edged weapon' against another person or animal, rather than the token act of banning knives. Edged weapons are the real threat and something we can never ban. How do you ban a Cola can? Or the screwdriver you fix your reading glasses with?

Along with many other registered and licensed firearms holders, I had to hand my guns back over to the police for disposal after the Dunblaine incident but I didn’t see any villains in the queue handing over their guns. I think the same applies to the recent knife amnesty.

The gun culture has mainly been brought to the forefront by the Jamaican yardie followers and the American influence on youngsters via rap music. The yardie thing is only really related to drugs so it doesn’t normally affect most people but the gangster rap followers are a changing face of the country. It is becoming embedded in our street language, body language, youth attitude and way in which we react to situations. The rap culture has been great to offer a way out of the slums for kids who wouldn’t be given a second look in other arenas but the downside is that there are thousands that will not seek positive opportunity and will use it to front modern day street thuggery. The generation that follows will see this as the norm and will accept being a street thug becomes a way of life. We all tend to become as our environment dictates. if you watch the film 'kidulthood' it gives a pretty accurate portrayal of the youth culture today. Its spot on. I took my 14 year old daughter to see it - with neither of us knowing what it was about. I’m no prude but it had some embarrassing scenes. Despite that it really opens up the side that most parents don’t imagine their kids to be part of. I kept thinking 'is this the future of our country- are these out future leaders'.

One thing I want to add about knives is that those that carry them are really scared of their own inability to deal with a confrontation without weapons. They think carrying a knife makes them look like a tough guy but the reality is that they are really showing how scared they are. But the danger here is that fear makes us act in ways that are not the ‘norm’ for us so a scared person with a knife or edged weapon is more likely to use it out of sheer panic and fear.

* Erin:- What, in your experience, drives some men to commit violent acts? What’s the difference between a guy who can laugh off a spilt drink / ogled girlfriend and the one who kicks off?

Jamie:- Almost every situation that arises comes from someone trying to devalue something that is precious to another. That normally manifests itself in the form of anger and at some stage anger is facing itself from both sides and the volcano explodes. Plato the Greek philosopher said 'no-one fears when angry', and how true that is. If someone scratches your car, bad mouths your family, tells a lie about you etc they are devaluing something that you apply a value to. That will set off your anger which you will need to deal with in some way. In my youth I would instantly react in an explosive manner and use anger and violence to make me feel better. As time passed and I matured I came to realise that I was not making use of that space and time period in-between 'stimulus and response'. That important few seconds that should be used wisely to think about all the consequences of my next action to a situation that set my stimulus off. I now always use that space to remind myself that for a panicked thoughtless angry reaction, I could find myself taking a trip in an ambulance, police car or a hearse. The same applies also to the other person involved. Would my girlfriend, children, family, friends be real proud of me if I risked all of those possibilities over a spilt drink. I don’t think so. I’ve written a whole book around this area ‘no one fears when angry’. Its something I thought about a lot.

Here’s an example; If somebody called me a fat slob I try now to look at the ‘facts’ rather than letting the emotions most people feel, control me. The point is that I’m either fat or I’m not. If I am fat then their observation is accurate, but if I’m not fat then the observation is incorrect. So the name caller is either correct or not. So what should I be getting worked up about? Also if they called me the same thing in another language that I did not understand, it would be meaningless to me.

I could take another persons life in a few seconds with my bare hands so I have to seriously think about my actions. I now use that space in-between stimulus and response 'wisely' to avoid petty confrontations developing into something worse to end up facing the more serious consequences of police, ambulance, hearse as mentioned earlier.

* Erin:- Why are some blokes victims to pub fights / football rucks time and again? Is it body language? Is there anything you can do to make yourself seem less of a soft target?

Jamie:- Its all about environment. Mix that with like minded people fuelled with anger and you will find aggression. It doesn’t happen to groups in churches, in the cinema, in supermarkets etc. Anger fuelled environments are the problem. You also have thuggy idiots who have a like-minded peer group within which they can dish out violence and almost get a pat on the back for it.

if you tried to stroke a crocodile you are likely to get bitten as a basic minimum. If you run across a busy motorway in the dark you are likely to get struck. If you go to a venue where groups of lads are likely to get angry if their night doesn’t go well or they are fuelled by alcohol, you are likely to get set upon. Its not really about looking 'lesser a target', its about not being in that environment in the first place. My rule of thumb for any environment is to ask myself 'would I be happy to let my children be here on their own'. That pretty much works out if the place presents a risk. My children’s age range goes from 15-26 so my values do apply to the adult world.

If you want to make yourself a softer or lesser target, don’t give people any pointers or indicators on your choice of Sport, Politics or religion. It doesn’t change your personal views or beliefs, it just gets rid of the proverbial advertising board that you may carry around. This is not always possible as some dress codes such as the Seihks and orthodox Jews prefer to wear their clothing to let people know who they are, but putting faith and religion aside, most of us can make a lot of changes to stop us being targeted.

A question we all need to ask ourselves is 'can I have a conversation without talking sports, politics and religion?'

The truth is that most of us can't. It took me some time to be able to do this but I can do it well now. The line I normally use if any of these come up in conversation is 'I don’t really understand anything about that subject so it would be ignorant for me to make any comments on this’. Being externally neutral doesn’t change my personal views on sports, politics or religion, it just lessens reasons for people to pick an argument with me.

* Erin:- Do you recommend talking your way out of a situation? If so, how - what words work? Or once a guy has decided he’s having a fight, is that it?

Jamie:- Firstly, you should always talk your way out of a situation if you think it will get worse if you don’t. Try to take it as a personal 'test' to see if you can get the other person to ‘back off’ rather than ‘back down’. They are two different things. People are prepared to back off because they think its a choice that they have made, but by backing down leaves them feeling angry and you could end up with a surprise attack brought on by anger.

There are two things to consider here. The level of threat you are faced with and how you can use art of deception to help get you out of a sticky situation. You need to instantly assess the danger you are faced with. I simplify this by classing this as

Simple, Serious or Life threatening.

Simple being a non physical threat- maybe an insult to your pride. Next we have Serious - where it could result in physical application with you ending up with a bruise, bloody nose, broken skin etc, and then the most serious being something that will leave you with broken bones or could change your life as you know it now.

If I had a future as a pianist and someone was going to break my hands or fingers, I consider that life threatening because it would change my future. If someone was going to take my eyesight from me I would see that as life-threatening. It would totally change my current life as I live it now and would determine the seriousness of my response.

So once I assess the level of threat I do all I can to reduce it to a less threatening level. That’s the challenge people at risk should set themselves.

You will need to lie and deceive the aggressor if you want to con them into not proceeding with their intended assault.

Here are some things I’ve known people to successfully use.

1. Listen, you are obviously a very handy person, would you be interested in earning a nice few quid sorting out a little problem for me.

2. I don’t want to have a situation with you so if we are not able to resolve it, lets take it outside/inside etc (you then have time to call the police, a cab, or slip away)

3. Go to the security staff/manager/shop owner and say you need a cab urgently to hospital as you think something has been slipped in your drink which is dangerous with the current medication you are on.

4. Go over to another group of people and offer them money to protect you.

5. Lie lie lie in anyway you need to so you can survive that ugly moment of threat you are faced with.

There are dozens of other ways to deal with it so the above are just some ideas.

I’ve just finished recording a 7 week series for ITV called 'bouncers', which covers a lot of this.

* Erin:- If you need to fight, is it a case of having a few moves up your belt? Which moves? Are there any surefire ways to incapacitate an attacker?

Jamie:- I don’t really want to provide advice that could be misused by the bad guys, but

Running away is an option we should all build onto our levels of acceptability. A pair of heels can be worth twp pairs of hands if they are going to save your life.

I have a handy set of physical tricks such as shown in my 'human stun gun' DVD, that I employ if it gets violent but I can’t share it with you here because I would also be arming the bad guys. Just as it would be wrong to share here how I could render someone unconscious in a few seconds. Advice like that could be seriously abused. What I could say is that if you think that you are not going to be able to stop someone from getting physical with you then you will be in a position of 'fearing for your safety' so you can lawfully launch a pre-emptive strike as a form of self defence. The TV celeb Russell Brand is actually using my book 'pre-emptive strikes for winning fights' in his new channel 4 show about masculinity.

What is important to say here is that in my opinion, the martial arts have not found a successful physical response to deal with a knife attack, so don’t try a half hearted martial move against a knife. You are likely to get yourself hurt or killed. The best advice is to create a distance between you and the attacker and keep it that way.

* Erin:- What about the aftermath of a fight / attack? How do you get over injured pride and avoid becoming massively paranoid?

Jamie:- Unless you change your environment after a bad result in a physical or verbal beating, you will take a real bashing of your pride and will carry this baggage with you for a long time. You really need to change whatever it was that put you in the particular setting that existed when you had conflict. It may be easier to have the other person removed from the environment. That’s what prisons are supposed to do.

Apart from that, you need to find ways to gradually build yourself up whether that’s mentally or physically. I’ve explored this in-depth in my book 'what makes tough guys tough'.

Further info on my DVD’s, books can be found on www.newbreedbooks.co.uk

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